[older messages]
18 Oct 18, 14:10
waveguru: Let's get Jared on it. He has done wonders with the Palestine situation.
18 Oct 18, 14:10
waveguru: ;) forgot this
18 Oct 18, 14:15
db: Oh! I thought you were serious.
18 Oct 18, 14:15
larry: Meanwhile, a Tom Toles cartoon that pretty much sums up what Republicans in Congress plan next, to help cover the exploding deficit they created with the Tax Scam bill: [link]
18 Oct 18, 14:19
larry: And by the way, regarding the way Republicans are suddenly embracing "coverage for pre-existing conditions" in their reelection campaigns: the legislation that they tried to pass, and will try to pass again if they retain control of both Houses says that yes, insurance companies have to "offer insurance" for those with pre-existing condition, but they can deny coverage within that insurance for those specific conditions. Plus, they can charge those people whatever they want to charge; not a community-based equal premium.
18 Oct 18, 14:20
larry: Such hypocrisy, such lies. What has the Republican Party become?
18 Oct 18, 14:22
waveguru: I can't view that cartoon, I've reached my limit, in more ways than one I guess?
18 Oct 18, 14:24
larry: Here ya go: [link]
18 Oct 18, 17:12
waveguru: Innocent until proven guilty? Only during the trial... [link]
18 Oct 18, 17:13
waveguru: This substantial evidence, coupled with reports of the crown prince's previous attempts to silence critics, makes it an eminently logical and supportable conclusion that Khashoggi was murdered at the behest of government officials. Of course, if any member of the Saudi government is ever brought to justice in an American courtroom, he will then enjoy a presumption of innocence.
18 Oct 18, 17:58
db: It looks like the Saudis are picking their sacrificial goat. [link]
18 Oct 18, 21:51
Fishawk: Did anyone ever fool themselves into believing that a Saudi Crown Prince would be held accountable for this? Trump thinks he could get away with shooting someone on 5th Ave,he's a piker compared to the House of Saud. The majority of Muslim extremist terrorist groups are tied to Saudi's medrasas including Bin Laden. Given the cover he's given them, it's hard to believe they don't own Trump. Or at least have him on loan from Putin.
19 Oct 18, 07:20
waveguru: This is an excellent article from Al Jazeera on the Arab response, or lack of, to the most recent atrocities from Saudi Arabia: [link] It gives a very good insight into the Middle East from the Middle East.
19 Oct 18, 08:12
db: I'm afraid those are truths that we are often afraid to admit. Who knows, perhaps Donnie realizes that he is a toothless tiger, that the Saudis have him over a barrel (excuse the mixed metaphors) and that a position of supine submission is the way to go. Even if those hundreds of billions of dollars in arms sales are mostly desert mirages, one has to consider all of the other areas where the Saudis hold the big stick over us. Again, forgive the mixing of metaphors. Besides, Donnie has to think ahead to his business concerns.
19 Oct 18, 08:46
waveguru: To be at odds with the Saudis is one thing. To be at odds with the entire Arab World would be quite another... It's maybe a little like Thanksgiving dinner, sometimes it's best to just smile and nod your head.
19 Oct 18, 08:59
waveguru: I really wonder if we will ever get the truth, and the whole truth, about what happened. We certainly know we are NOT getting nothing but the truth. Knowing the penchant that the Arab world has for cutting things off, it is easy to believe all the rumors about cutting off fingers and limbs as part of the torture before they strangled Khashoggi. To most of us in the western world, this is completely unacceptable, but in most of the Arab world, not so much so.
19 Oct 18, 08:59
waveguru: edit
19 Oct 18, 09:45
db: Well, the Turks are certainly playing their own game, but I would imagine our intelligence services aren't relying solely on what Turkey has. They must surely have other sources, and Donnie should have access to everything HIS intelligence services have. But he doesn't bother to read intelligence briefings and apparently doesn't think to ask.
19 Oct 18, 09:46
db: After all, he knows more than anyone else about practically everything. He tells us this quite often.
19 Oct 18, 11:50
Operationmockingbird: I am getting the idea that most of us in this room are much more informed than our president😀
19 Oct 18, 12:07
waveguru: I think he is quite informed, but playing stupid. Or it could be that he really is stupid?
19 Oct 18, 12:30
Operationmockingbird: What do you think it is wave?
19 Oct 18, 12:47
waveguru: He has surely been briefed, but maybe he thinks it's fake intelligence?
19 Oct 18, 12:47
waveguru: What do you think?
19 Oct 18, 13:04
Operationmockingbird: I must always visit when the left coast is taking their lunchbreak
19 Oct 18, 13:05
Operationmockingbird: Lol took that long for my post to post. Good to see you wave
19 Oct 18, 13:06
Operationmockingbird: I think us arm chair politicians just need to sit back and wait for the truth so we do not make fools of ourselves
19 Oct 18, 13:27
waveguru: You always ask what we think, but you never tell us what you think. Why? Waiting is not an opinion.
19 Oct 18, 13:27
Operationmockingbird: Darn blazers should have started stauskas
19 Oct 18, 13:29
Operationmockingbird: You have stated that you think the president is stupid. I have stated that he has more info than ya commoners. What is the issue?
19 Oct 18, 13:29
Operationmockingbird: Us commoners
19 Oct 18, 13:30
Operationmockingbird: Darn auto correct anyway
19 Oct 18, 13:38
Operationmockingbird: alright Take care all
19 Oct 18, 16:45
db: Well, that certainly clears everything up. The Saudis now confirm that Kashoggi is dead, he died in a fist fight in the Saudi consulate. I guess he was accidentally chopped up. That should satisfy Donnie.
19 Oct 18, 16:48
db: After all, Donnie has no problem with politicians assaulting journalists, as he told his adoring mob last night.
19 Oct 18, 16:59
Fishawk: Maybe we will get a WWF clip with Kashoggi's image imposed onto a figure. Probably as close to a realistic explaination as we will get from this administration.
19 Oct 18, 17:04
Fishawk: Anyone stupid enough to believe anything the Saudis have to say is a fool. Anyone who thinks they are our ally is a Moron. They are lying, self serving, murderous scum with no morality, and loyal only to themselves.
19 Oct 18, 20:29
cathleen: What does anyone think about Measure 102 on the Oregon ballot?
19 Oct 18, 20:32
larry: I'm uncertain about that one myself. [link]
19 Oct 18, 20:34
larry: I'm usually hesitant to vote "yes"when the Oregon Constitution is being amended by a referendum measure, but I need to study that one more. It sounds like a good idea, but there's usually a catch.
19 Oct 18, 20:35
larry: I'm not sure what problem (if any) it solves.
19 Oct 18, 20:56
db: I've been hoping we'd get some discussion going here about local candidates and issues. Thanks for coming, cathleen.
19 Oct 18, 20:58
db: I'm with larry about a lot of the referendums, they are often poorly written and seem unnecessary.
19 Oct 18, 21:37
dsc: The League of Women Voters recommends a "yes" on Measure 102 [link]
20 Oct 18, 07:24
cathleen: sorry, I went to sleep! I'm interested in discussion about Measure 102!
20 Oct 18, 07:24
cathleen: larry, it sounds like free money doesn't it? but it's never free.
20 Oct 18, 07:25
db: I'd like to hear from someone who supports it. Why do they support it, why should we?
20 Oct 18, 07:26
cathleen: I'm curious what others really think about it. Truth is - I don't know that much about the details.
20 Oct 18, 07:38
cathleen: if it is a bond, how does that actually work?
20 Oct 18, 07:38
cathleen: does it mean that the money for the project is taken from other "bond projects" so that taxes theoretically are not raised?
20 Oct 18, 07:40
cathleen: Are Bonds state funded, or municipal? or federal?
20 Oct 18, 07:52
larry: That's the part that isn't clear to me, the funding part. Higher property taxes?
20 Oct 18, 07:55
db: Magic money.
20 Oct 18, 07:56
cathleen: I just read the LWV statement, it only refers to Washington County...
20 Oct 18, 07:58
cathleen: ok. just read the measure on the ballot. it does state that "local govts" can issue bonds....
20 Oct 18, 08:00
cathleen: i guess the issue is, to vote whether or not the bonds can be issued to non- govenmental agencies, as in local home builders.
20 Oct 18, 08:05
cathleen: so we want for our local homebuilders to be the beneficiaries of bonds, not out of state homebuilders, right?
20 Oct 18, 08:07
larry: I guess that's the distinction. But still, just more bonds to be added to property taxes. The measure does require that any new bonds must be voted on.
20 Oct 18, 08:22
larry: How are city and county affordable housing projects paid for now?
20 Oct 18, 08:23
larry: And how does this Measure change that?
20 Oct 18, 08:50
Mike: If measure 102 passes, the city of Hood River could issue bonds to help with the construction of affordable housing - even if the stake holders are private parties. Before measure 102, for the city to issue bonds the city had to be the owner of the property. Revenue from the project will go to pay the interest and principal, if the project fails bond holders might seek recourse from the issuer of the bonds - in this case Hood River. For more info on measure; [link]
20 Oct 18, 08:59
Mike: Oregon is a bit in a pickle with our land use laws, by setting up an urban growth boundary developers are forced to stay within this boundary pushing property values up. As supply decreases, what's available becomes more expensive. The incentive is to maximize the return by building larger homes with more amenities and getting the highest per foot return. The offset is finding a less expensive source of funds, less desirable land and mandating this type of development. As we've seen with the attempt to steal our park, this can be contentious.
20 Oct 18, 09:01
cathleen: great info Mike. thank you!
20 Oct 18, 09:26
larry: Thanks Mike. So a "yes" vote would open up the possibility of the City passing bonds for private developers to build affordable housing on the developers' land. But the City would still be on the hook for bond repayment if the project fails for whatever reason.
20 Oct 18, 09:39
larry: But, bottom line, voters would have to approve any such bonds. So there's that.
20 Oct 18, 10:47
larry: Oregon's Habitat For Humanity weighs in on Measure 102: "The amendment would lift the current ban on the ability of local governments to work with nonprofits and local businesses to build affordable housing with bonds. This small change means local housing bond dollars can go farther, helping communities address the need for homes that people can afford."
20 Oct 18, 11:31
Cris: The urban growth boundary is a bit of a conundrum for some, isn’t it? On one hand, it made it very tricky to buy a home in a place that had limited space and places to build. On the other hand, I came from a place with no zoning laws and construction and sprawl made cheap homes, but a much lower quality of life. I will take quality over quantity, even tho I paid through the nose for it.
20 Oct 18, 11:35
Cris: Bond money would be approved by voters, would that affect property taxes? Would this measure affect the growth boundary? Sorry I am late to the convo on this.
20 Oct 18, 11:37
Cris: (Unrelated to politics, but Larry, I may need to make a new user name for this chat room. I don’t remember my log in at all, but my phone has it stored so I can only access via mobile but not laptop)
20 Oct 18, 11:43
larry: Cris, I've deleted your user name; you can now re-register it (or a different name if you want) and set a new password.
20 Oct 18, 11:52
Cris: Awesome thank you ☺️
20 Oct 18, 14:04
Operationmockingbird: A relief to have a different topic
20 Oct 18, 15:18
db: Isn't it, though.
20 Oct 18, 17:15
larry: Would it be possible to set aside some time here, like maybe this coming week, to just discuss local ballot issues (and not national politics)?
20 Oct 18, 17:27
larry: That would require quite a bit of admin moderation though, and I'm not really up for that myself.
20 Oct 18, 19:04
db: I'll give it a try.
20 Oct 18, 19:05
db: How about from now til the election.
20 Oct 18, 19:06
db: Although I would be open to civil discussion of local and state candidates, too.
20 Oct 18, 19:10
larry: I don't know if it needs to be more than a week, but your call. I didn't mean to restrict it to just ballot measures; candidates would be ok also I guess. But good luck keeping it civil. :)
20 Oct 18, 19:12
db: Let's make it as long as there is continuing imput. Or until I burn out.
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